An Encounter with the Mormons - Part 2



It was Thursday once again, the previous week had gone by so quickly as my husband, Peter, and I anticipated the day the Mormon missionaries would come back with their church elder. I had recounted my experience with him and he too was eager to meet with them. As afternoon approached, we wondered whether they would still come despite the bad weather. We waited as the rain poured down and to calm our nerves, we prayed together and asked the Holy Spirit to be with us.

There was a knock at our door, and we knew this was it. Peter welcomed them in as he called me from our room. Introductions were in order as they acquainted us with their church elder, Bishop Richard. He was young man, around his mid – 30’s I would presume, cheery and amiable.

I started by telling them that Peter and I were discussing how we were glad to have an opportunity to share the gospel with them and in a manner such that we may convey the real message of Jesus. They too were pleased to be back and continue on with their mission work. And so we opened with a prayer as Sister Guerrero asked for enlightenment for us that we may all be led to the truth. They asked us whether we began to read the Book of Mormon yet, we said no. In turn, we asked if they had read the bible more, they said yes. Great! We were at least in a common ground to discuss ‘the truth’. But they asserted that the Book of Mormon [BOM] clarifies things in the bible so that we may not be led astray by different interpretations. Well I reminded them of last week’s discussion – that if they only read the bible with the proper ‘lenses’, it will be clear to them as it can ever be. As for us not being led astray, again it is through the teaching authority of the magisterium that we are on the right track.

To illustrate this statement, Bishop Richard invited us to read from the bible John 10: 14-16
I am the good shepherd. I know my own and my own know me, as the Father knows me and I know the Father. Because of this, I give my life for my sheep. I have other sheep which are not of this fold. These I have to lead as well, and they shall listen to my voice. Then there will be one flock, since there is one shepherd.

Bishop Richard [BR]: “It’s beautiful, isn’t it?”

Me: “Yes. It was Jesus’ desire that we may all be one.”

BR: “But who do you think are these ‘other sheep not of this fold’?”

Peter: “The lost ones, those who have not heard about Jesus’ message.”

Sister Hudson [SH]: “Okay, but who specifically? Where were the plates found from your reading?”

Me: “Hill Cumorrah. In New York.”

SH: “Yes, but there was no New York at that time yet. The answer to that should have been ‘The Americas’.”

BR: “Correct. These ‘other sheep’ was explained here in the BOM. Others thought Jesus was talking about the Gentiles. When Jesus went to the Americas after the resurrection he told the Nephites the same message he said to the people in Jerusalem…”

He quoted from Nephi, one of the writings in the BOM, Jesus saying “You are the other sheep I was speaking about…I came so that you too might be saved” or something to that effect. How very convenient. If he knew Jesus at all, he would know that His mission was to draw all people to him, all who know His voice. Jesus would not have moonlighted here and there in his ministry. Why would this ‘other sheep’ refer to a specific people in the Americas when it is meant to include ALL other nations throughout the world? We are essentially Gentiles also who have heard the good news and have come to believe.

Me: “Jesus had already commissioned the apostles to spread the gospel. Why would he need to go and do something like that, as if he did not trust them?”

BR: “Yes he did, but that was just in Jerusalem.”

Me: “No, he said to Go out to the whole world and proclaim the Good News to all creation (Mk 16:15). If He went to another continent, it would be very challenging to trace the origin of this good news.”

It’s hard enough to convince the Jews that He is the Messiah, what more for a people who are not expecting any messiah at all?

BR: “And the BOM is also part of this good news because it is another testament of Jesus not contained bible. That is why we have this as a companion – it complements the bible in many ways.”

I just had to stop him there and reiterate that what we have in the bible is the true gospel and we cannot rely on something so easily just because one claimed to have received a new revelation from God. I was waiting for the right time to quote a verse from the bible and this was it.
St. Paul writes in Galatians 1: 6-10
I am surprised at how quickly you have abandoned God who called you according to the grace of Christ, and have gone to another gospel. Indeed, there is no other gospel, but some people who are sowing confusion among you want to turn the Gospel of Christ upside down. But even if we ourselves were giving you another gospel different from the one we preached to you, or if it were an angel from heaven, I would say: let God’s curse be on him! As I have said I now say again: if anyone preaches the Gospel in a way other than you have received it, fire that one. Are we to please humans or obey God? Do you think that I try to please people? If I were still trying to please people, I would not be a servant of Christ.

Me: “It is plainly said here. Paul even had to speak about themselves, and reminding the people to trust the reliable teachers of the gospel from whom they have received it. There is no other gospel. To me, it is crystal clear. Now how does that speak to you?”

Blank stares.

I continued. “There were several gospels floating around before the church had officially chosen which books are truly inspired. Many did not make it to the canon of the bible because they contained exaggerations of the truth, not primarily because the message was false. No doubt that it contained good things, but it just didn’t conform to the original teachings. An example would be the gospel of Thomas. It wasn’t included because it contained ambiguous allusions to Jesus.”

Sister Hudson’s face was troubled, but kept her composure as she asked, “How then would you explain the different versions and translations of the bible we have today?”

“Languages have various nuances and sometimes words are expressed differently but the message still should be intact. It is the interpretation that varies. But translations are necessary so that the gospel can be spread.”

“Yes, the interpretations are different because of the many translations over time. And because the apostles weren’t around anymore, they soon misunderstood the real meaning of it.”

“Who misunderstood then? You or us?,” Peter darted.

Bishop Richard calmly rebutted, “But eventually the church became corrupt and the great apostasy happened. Soon, there were other teachings and customs that are being added.”

“Again, I do not believe that”, I said as I held my ground. I told Bishop about the ‘keys to the kingdom’ and the apostolic succession just as I told them a week before.

“In fact, the second pope, Linus was mentioned in one of Paul’s letters in the New Testament. Though it is not definite that it is the same Linus, it is highly probable that it could be him given that the apostles already had disciples of their own whom they were training and teaching just as Jesus did. Clement, the fourth pope, is also mentioned. He is one of the disciples of Peter who was ordained to teach. So for you to say that with the last apostle died with them the authenticity of the church is false, when we have already seen at least two generations of apostolic succession.”

SH: “But they did not have the Spirit with them anymore.”

“I beg to differ. During Pentecost, it is said that over 150 persons were there including the Blessed Mother, who received the Holy Spirit.”

“Okay, let’s say they did have the Spirit, but they did not have the authority to lead the church.”

“Why did it have to take 1800 years before Jesus was to ‘restore’ his church with the proper authority then?”

“Well because no one was worthy. The people were not yet ready because they have been following different teachings.”

“Do you think Peter (the apostle) was worthy? This person who told Jesus he would die for him, only to deny him three times? No one is truly worthy. But the Spirit surpasses human nature and enables them to do what was necessary to safe guard the deposit of faith.”

“Through the years, the church did not remain pure,” Bishop Richard sustained as he again let out his stand that the original church did not remain faithful all throughout history. “There were tweaks done in the teachings and they continue to this day.”

I requested him to give me a specific example of a ‘tweaked teaching’ and that I might be given a chance to defend it. I was expecting, almost egging, him to mention the Virgin Mary because we had a big statue of her in our living room. I thought maybe, that and the other statues and images looming over us made them uncomfortable from the very beginning. We were more than prepared for that hit, since the night before, we listened to a lecture concerning Mary and I was eager to use ‘kecharitomene’ in my defence…but maybe next time.

And so Bishop dropped his statement regarding Baptism. “Alright. What about in certain baptismal practices today. It is only by sprinkling of water instead of immersion just like how Jesus was baptized in the River Jordan? If I am correct, the sprinkling tradition started I think during the time of Constantine, where there was one person who was sick and could not go to the river to be baptized, so they sprinkled him and from that time on it was the one being followed.”

“Well, first it’s precisely for that reason he was baptized that way. It was an extraordinary circumstance. You cannot expect a sick person wanting baptism to be immersed would you? Or deny him grace because it cannot be done ‘the proper way’?”

“Immersing in water meant one is cleansed from sin. In fact, when the apostles went to baptize people, it says in the New Testament that they looked for a body of water.”

“Yes, but Jesus did not specify immersion.”

“Not in the bible, he did not. But in the BOM…” He opened to a verse stating that Jesus taught people to stand in front of a body of water and immerse the person and to baptize them. The following verse also says ‘believe that I am in the Father and the Father is in me.’ – a very good reference for later’s discussion on the Trinity.

“Do you think that is really necessary? I mean, the water symbolizes cleansing but that doesn’t mean that a person who was baptized via sprinkling is less of a child of God versus the one immersed? Does the efficacy of the baptism rely on the amount of water and not on God’s grace? Also, when people came to be baptized before the apostles…whole households came it is said. The family system before was patriarchal so if the father said let’s be baptized – everybody in the family is baptized, including children. Now you wouldn’t immerse children or very old people for that matter.”

“So why do we need to change things when Jesus already showed us an example during his baptism, so we ought to follow that.”

“Yes, I’m not saying that baptism nowadays is limited to sprinkling only. But the question is: why do we need to be baptized? What did Jesus intend when he said to baptize all nations…?” I asked him, trying to arrive at my main point.

“We are baptized in order that we might be born again. We are born again, because by His grace through the Holy Spirit we become children of God. Hence we are cleansed of the original sin we inherited when we were born of the flesh. Now which is more important, the water which somehow symbolizes grace? Or the Spirit, which is the source of grace? So again, do you think it is utterly necessary to be baptized by immersion so as to receive this gift fully? If so, then you are forgetting the real meaning of baptism. It is like putting a limit to the power of God, on how he grants us his grace to be children and co-heirs to the Kingdom. This is also the reason why infants can be baptized, for who is so wicked as to withhold God’s grace to his child?”

“But babies have not yet sinned, why should they be cleansed if there is nothing to cleanse?” Sister Hudson exclaimed.

“That is the meaning of being born of the flesh. Until we are baptized, we are still children ‘of the flesh and not of the Spirit’.”

“Do you expect that your sin is inherited by your baby then?”

“Of course not, I’m talking of original sin – from Adam and Eve.”

“The first sin was necessary so that we can participate in God’s plan for us and our families because we are now saved from it.”

“That sin was definitely NOT necessary. God’s original plan was for man to have eternal life but because of that sin, man could no longer have that until we are saved by Jesus – this is somehow his back-up plan because he knows the heart of man and his tendencies. He already thought of that since the beginning but could only be accomplished in time according to His plan.”

They had a difficult time accepting this due to their belief that we could all progress from our sinful human nature and become gods in some other dimension or planet. Anyway, original sin is different from personal sin in that if Adam and Eve had not sinned, we would all still be living in paradise as God had wanted us in the first place. What we inherited is the fallen nature of man, and not the personal sins committed after that. We need God’s saving grace in order that we might be freed from sin. As Jimmy Akin would say, “baptism communicates God’s grace to us so that we might share in the new covenant of Jesus Christ even if we do not understand it yet.” Now some might say you need faith in order to be saved – true. It is through the faith of the parents that a child is welcomed into God’s family just as they themselves have come to believe through their parents’ faith and example. We can relate this from scripture when Jesus healed the centurion’s servant. In Matthew 8 the captain said “I am not worthy to have you under my roof. Just give an order and my boy will be healed” and Jesus, astonished at this man’s faith said in return, “Go home now. As you believed, so let it be.” Faith is certainly powerful and it is not dampened by our lack of knowledge or understanding.

Trying to divert us back to the BOM, Bishop Richard said something about how lucky we all are that we know the good news of Jesus through his word. Then Sister Hudson unexpectedly asked, “How do you view the Old Testament?”

I don’t know what led her to question, was she trying to find a weak point or was she now interested in the bible? But I loved that she asked. So I answered, “The New Testament is concealed in the Old and the Old Testament is revealed in the New. Jesus is the fulfilment of the scriptures. Everything in the bible is congruent. It is complete and no one can add to it or remove from it.”
I was elated at how words just came out of my mouth without delay. The Holy Spirit was undeniably speaking through me and it was amazing to experience God’s power at work. Peter later told me that he couldn’t interrupt me even if he had something to say because I was on fire. He didn’t know if our guests were listening out of the desire to find a loophole or if they were inspired.

And so I went on to shed light on the Holy Trinity just as I promised them last time.

“Let’s start with the simplest explanation,” I began.

“Before Jesus ascended into heaven he said to “Baptize them in the Name of the Father and of the Son and of the Holy Spirit. (Mt 28: 19)” He did not say in the NAMES… which imply the oneness of God, there is perfect unity within the three persons. Actually he cannot be contained in a name that’s why he called himself “I am”. From your reading of the BOM a while ago and actually is in the bible too: Jesus is in the Father and the Father is in him again shows that if a perfect being is united with something, then there is perfect harmony; they’re inseparable. How or why they are what they are, is a mystery and we cannot expect to fully grasp that. The Holy Spirit is also a person and not just some ball of energy because we see he also speaks in some of the letters of the New Testament. God the Father does not have a physical body; he did not come down, did his business with Mary and had Jesus. In fact, Jesus was conceived through the Holy Spirit. If they are not truly ONE, then Jesus would not have been the ‘son’ of god the father. Also we read from John 1:1, ‘In the beginning was the Word. And the Word was with God and the Word was God; he was in the beginning with God.’ We all know that Jesus is the Word incarnate. Recall from the creation story that the Spirit was already there and in the verses ‘Let US make man in OUR image…’  So just with these, we can deduce that they are more than just sub-gods with one purpose, but they are rightly One God and not really separate from one another.”

“Yes, okay.” Bishop Richard conceded. I hope he isn’t missing the point though.

Sister Hudson jumped to the rescue even though she was scandalized by the idea of God the Father not having a physical body. “You know we could be here all day discussing our differences and never finish; but really we’re just here to share that the Book of Mormon is part of god’s message and we truly believe it comes from god.”

Coming to his senses, Bishop Richard spoke up. “It is nice that we had the chance to share the gospel and I know that you have part of the truth, but we can only understand it completely with the BOM.”

“I’m sorry but Jesus has already revealed the fullness of truth through his church.”

“But you don’t have the apostles, how can you have a stable structure? When the church was restored through Joseph Smith, he appointed new apostles as well.” Sister Hudson said, almost flushing with annoyance.

The Mormons believe a church is genuine only if it follows the same organization as in the time of Jesus – that is, a prophet and twelve apostles.

“That’s what I’ve been telling you about the apostolic succession and how it is keeping holy tradition intact by teaching reliable people to be their disciples.”

“But the original apostles went their separate ways. They couldn’t have coped up with all that.”

“Then the gospel also wouldn’t have spread throughout the world if all twelve would’ve stuck together like that. I believe that this is the true church because it is one, holy, catholic and apostolic.” I will do an article for this some other time.

“The Church of Latter Day Saints does not impose on people; we only share the truth, we do not claim to have all the answers.”

How could a church who asserts to have been given the restored authority directly from god say that it does not (or cannot) impose the truth? If this new prophet answers directly to god, wouldn’t its church have the audacity to say things that attest to the truth? The Catholic Church, on the other hand does not impose, but it gives light to the realities taught by Jesus and the implications of following Him. Church authority is often mistaken as a leash that holds its members by the throat, when it is only meant to provide guidance and protection from a world of secularism. It does not speak and act on its own authority, but by virtue of Christ’s authority; speaking in the name of Christ. (Excerpt from paragraph 875 of the Catechism of the Catholic Church) There IS salvation outside the church because God’s grace and mercy is not and could not be limited to the confines of a religion. It is, however, in the Catholic Church where one can appreciate the fullness of faith. Don’t just take my word for it – come and see.

“I am just sharing my faith with you.” I said in reply. “I do not know the whole bible, nor have I read it all. But I do believe in certain truths that I have told you.”

“And it is the same with us. This we know and believe to be true.”

“So I encourage you then to read the bible more. Also, for you to study how the Book of Mormon really came about. I have done my research and it’s kind of doubtful.”

“Oh so you went to the sites I wrote down?”

“Yes, but of course I did not limit myself to those only.”

Sister Hudson frowned but I tried to reassure her that I looked at it from all sides and asked her to do the same – to face the facts. The bible certainly can be traced back to history but that does not take away its sacredness or truth.

In closing, Bishop Richard said, “If you cannot accept the Book of Mormon as part of scripture, then I encourage you to read it first as a good book and hopefully in time, you will come to accept its truth when you pray about it. Treat it as a good book.”

He encouraged the Sisters to give their respective testimonies, to which they gave witness to their faith one last time with us. I asked Bishop Richard to read some writings of the early church fathers, those who came right after the apostles, in the hopes that he might find out how their beliefs and traditions are essentially the same with what the Catholic Church believes and practices today – most of which are thoroughly misunderstood to be inventions and tweakings. This was definitely a wonderful experience for me in defending the faith. This is what my husband and I will teach to our children.


I will continue to stand by Christ’s Church because it’s true, it’s good and it’s beautiful.
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